NTR – Beware the Legalists !


[audio: https://conspiracyclothes.com/nowheretorun/audio/beware_the_legalists.mp3]
I talk briefly about updates and then get into the issue of legalism and its many forms, and how to guard against it. I also mention issues like, free will vs predestination and denominations.

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11 thoughts on “NTR – Beware the Legalists !”

  1. Good points, all well made. As for the Cal vs Armin thing, I feel most comfortable now with Molinism, as it seems to quite nicely combine the positive aspects of both systems – God providentially orders the world based on His absolute foreknowledge of how free creatures would act in any given situation He chooses to create them in. With that in mind many of the paradoxes in both systems seem to evaporate, at least to my mind. We have real free will in the here and now, but whatever we choose, God already knows it and has planned accordingly, even from before the foundation of the world.

    Probably the best adumbration of this is given by William Lane Craig in his podcasts on salvation.

    I just throw that out there if anyone is interested. 😉

    Again, good podcast Chris. Love the picture BTW – Jesus of Nazareth has got to be one of the best Jesus films ever.

    God bless.

  3. Chris, it is a good idea to eliminate the “uh’s” – and will bring greater clarity of expression of your always interesting discussions
    –
    But this was an interesting discussion on salvation – the anxiety about salvation expressed by some reminds me of my youth in the catholic church – it is a real trap – I think holding to once saved always saved helps me to prevent the trap of legalism –

    I am not drawn to calvinism – but like the way Jack Kelley explains being called by God on his site Grace Thru Faith – since God knows the end from the beginning, He knows those who will accept the gift of Salvation – anyway, Kelley has a good site –

    I do have a problem with the mainstream churches since they are not speaking out against the evil being pushed by this govt (and other govt.) and therefore they are not warning the people. Many people would listen to mainstream churches and gain some protection from govt practices (whole body scans, molestation by tsa, vaccines, etc.
    So, I do think the mainstream churches are cowards who play it safe and do not speak out against evil – My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge Hosea 4:6. I think these churches are truly being spit out of God’s mouth – they are worse than lukewarm –

    I will continue to pray for your project on David Icke

  4. The clip from Guzik did seem contrary to Arminianism but I didn’t see how it was contrary to a Calvinistic soteriology. James White quotes Spurgeon saying the same thing Guzik did in his book Debating Calvinism:

    “God does not violate the human will when he saves men. They are not converted against their will, but their will itself is converted. The Lord has a way of entering the heart– not with a crowbar, like a burglar. But with a master-key, which he gently inserts in the lock, and the bolt flies back, the door opens, and he enters.”
    (this can be read in the Spurgeon Archive here: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/2241.htm)

    The point of difference between Arminian and Calvinistic soteriology is whether man is able or not to come to salvation on his own autonomy without God choosing to change him first.

    I would like to see how you exegete Romans 8 and 9…

  5. Tbe debate in the modern church is not really between Calvanism and Arminianism, but between a Reformed View of Grace and a perverted Pelagianism that many in the Church espouse. Even some with shows on RRN don’t seem to understand this. A dead man can’t save himself, and a blind man can’t make himself see. The question always comes down to “Who acts first?” God or Man. Once you answer this then the rest is easy.

  6. This term “legalism” does not appear in the Bible anywhere. It’s an invention of the lawless. We are told to be obedient to Jesus and that is who receives the tree of life (Rv.22:14). This is not works as many claim. Works have to do with the sacrificial system, which was the only thing nailed to the crioss since Jesus was the final sacrifice. I won’t labor the point. Chris should be able to self study the issue, tho he has apparently chosen poorly. The lawlessness has allowed the papacy to rule the planet. If we were obeying God’s word keeping the biblical Sabbath, not chasing other gods on xmas there would be no papal rule. Lawlessness = ecumenism, one and the same.

    Thing is most people are very good people, especially those trying to be Christian. It takes very little to also keep the true sabbath and eliminate the other babylonian practices that are the Roman Church’s mark.(Rv.14:9-12)

  8. I’d have to disagree Eric; it’s really not about “who acts first” as much as man’s ability to respond. Most non-Calvinists like myself totally agree it’s God who acts first – heck, 2000 years ago He acted. Today too His prevenient grace is and has been upon the world, drawing those who respond to Himself.

    I find most debates on salvation boil down to the “T” in TULIP. If man truly can’t even respond then Calvinism must be true, as the other four points all follow logically and almost necessarily. If, however, being “dead in sins” and similar verses don’t mean complete inability to respond, more akin to the prodigal sons “deadness” as pronounced by his Father (a parable, after all, explicitly given by Jesus to describe the state that exists between mankind and God), then Calvinism and all it’s difficulties needn’t be true.

    Personally my own movement away from Calvinism came when I started examining this crucial point for myself, and not just trusting the sound-bites of so many (often arrogant) popular Calvinist teachers.

  9. I am actually an Augustinian not a Calvanist (I’m not sure how your Quietism fits into that), but setting that aside, the issue for me is the difference between a Monergistic system where God alone is saving and sustaining you throughout your life and a Synergistic system where Man’s “response” becomes central and the focus of Christian thought. Prevenient grace then becomes a general form of grace, open to all, where the concept of biblical election has no place. Do we elect ourselves then? No, God’s salvation for Israel in the Old Testament is based on God’s decision to make a people for Himself out the nations. Spiritual Israel is no different and God’s choice to draw out of the nations a people for Himself functions the same way. Prevenient grace is not merely an offer of salvation where you have to repond, it is a grace that makes every condition possible for a dead man to repond. Regeneration, is a major factor where the heart and mind must be transformed and prevenient grace changes man’s nature to enable them. This does not happen to every man. If God desires all men to be saved yet this is not happening then you propose that God is failing. The problem with Calvanism is that they believe that once man is illuminated then they cannot fall away. Their system of reprobation is insufficient to explain NT passages that reference those that fall away. Reprobation does not depend on man either. If God withdraws, then man falls away and cannot prop himself up (Heb. 6). I think once you examine the examples of God healing the blind as a physical example of an spiritual reality (not a parable) then you can see that this is example of the heart of man. I agree that the “T” is at the crux of this, but I would maintain that man cannot respond (John 1:13) and that God’s will is soley reponsible for our salvation.

  10. I can respect your points, and can sympathise with your thoughts on Calvinisms position re: apostasy. It seems extremely hard to reconcile the many warnings, and plain statements that affirm people will fall away in Scripture, with TULIPs “P”.

    The only thing I’d take issue with is the understanding of sovereignty we both bring to the table. I don’t think God’s sovereignty is impinged upon by mankind having free-will, and man being a decisive factor in choosing salvation. It seems to me that the main thrust of the gospel, the bible, and missionary work is to present people with the offer and exhort to the right choice. Don’t get me wrong, mankind cannot earn salvation – Paul comes down heavily against this – but that’s not to say man has no expectation on him to choose life when it’s offered as a gift. For Paul, faith is always contrasted with works.

    God’s sovereignty isn’t diminished, as He Himself has set it up like this. Just as a boss, or a king, or a parent can delegate responsibility or authority or choice to their respective subordinates, so God gives us free will and expects us to use it rightly by choosing Him. If we make the wrong choices, God as sovereign will still ultimately punish, for He is sovereign.

    Let us not forget that God’s election of Israel was to earthly service, not eternal salvation (though that would naturally follow depending on faithfulness). People could be cut out from the community of Israel, and aliens could choose to become Jews and partake of the Covenant. The category of who is saved and how is up to God (Israel; the Church, by faith), who is part of that category is up to the individual.

    Personally, as a Molinist, I combine this with a strong form of God’s omniscience and foreknowledge. God knows who, if He were to draw them, will respond, and so has providentially ordered the world so that they are born into times and places where the gospel is preached. Those are the people who are “elect” in the biblical sense, but that doesn’t/didn’t lessen their responsibility to repent when God drew them. If they wouldn’t repent, then God would have foreknown it, and they wouldn’t be elect in the first place.

    Anyway, that’s just my thoughts and reflections on this difficult subject.

    God bless.

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